Talk:Community Black Mage Guide

The removal of Geomancer subjob option from the Community Guide

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The argument for using Geomancer as a subjob for Black Mage in the Community Guide is not constructive for several reasons.

The stats you gain from having an Indicolure spell are minimal because skill only uses your Geomancy skill to calculate the formula. You do not gain a boost from the combined skill of Handbells and Geomancy Skills because there are no handbells that can be used by any job other than GEO. You are not able to cast any Geocolure spells with GEO subbed further limiting your capabilities. Furthermore, any Indicolure Spells that provide a percentage gain oppose to raw number are outweighed by multiple other options from other subjobs.

The argument that GEO provides Conserve MP true either. BLM has access to Conserve MP III at level 86, you do not gain extra from having two jobs with the trait Conserve MP III trait at the same time. While you will gain Conserve MP IV at ML30 from having Geomancer subbed, what other traits, abilities, and spells are you missing out from having another subjob.

Overall, this subjob choice is not a niche style, compared to something like BLM/SAM is. The suggestion of BLM/GEO is not helpful to the community or has any merits to it. It is merely detrimental to those, especially new BLMs as they go through the game.

Please keep your opinions of extremely niche builds and situations out of the Community Guide if you do not want it to be open to criticism or removal.

--Zan (talk) 15:58, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, there is essentially zero reason to ever sub GEO on BLM. 3 Conserve MP is nothing compared to the loss of dark arts or refresh and convert. This feels like "it was on AH.com so I put it here."

Citing "solo" or whatever reasons is circular, and isn't some catch-all as it doesn't just inherently validate anything. -- Spicyryan (talk) 17:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the opinion of the guy who vandalized this guide in the first place and deleted ALL the sets is completely worthless. Ryan, if you don't want to be part of the community anymore, then stop being part of the community. This smells like you being territorial over a field that YOU burned down.

Zan, there is literally no good reason to delete content out of a guide that offers an alternative option to players and your opinion on what should be deleted is just that - your opinion. Nowhere in there do I state it's better than any of the other subjobs - in fact, I say the opposite. Criticism is fine but you fail to make an argument why you would not let a reader reach their own conclusion seeing all the data in front of them.

There IS a tiny niche for this, just because it doesn't fit into your meta doesn't mean it doesn't merit a few sentences in a guide.

--Afraidnot (talk) 13:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Bad guidance is bad. Don't deflect.

If something "niche" is outclassed by everything else and is being done just for the sake of it then it is not niche. --Spicyryan (talk) 17:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

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Afraidnot, you bring up a valid point about not allowing the reader make their own conclusion. I will be putting this in the main page for the reader to make their decision accordingly with the information available. I just hope that you don't remove it from the page either.

--Zan (talk) 18:08, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

All this talk of /GEO made me think about what other cool stuff BLM can do with subjobs that have been ignored for years. I thought about it a lot, and added what I think /COR can offer. Let me know what you guys think, I'm looking forward to more meta-breaking ideas. Hya (talk) 18:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Where is the /PUP set for BLM? Give the community the guidance it deserves. Stop only pushing effective or META tactics. Think of all the soloing you can do on BLM if you just sub PUP.

Hopefully Afraidnot doesn't remove those like he did the work and views of other people in their edit history of this guide! --Spicyryan (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

So much for letting the reader decide. RIP /COR except if you want to Phantom Roll that's okay I guess. Chizel (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you guys really want to just troll an attempt to put together resources after Spicyryan nuked this page? I am literally just trying to pool together sets for community use. I really don't understand the enabling of a dude who actively is trying to damage the FFXI community.

--Afraidnot (talk) 16:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a community guide, no one person has the right to arbitrarily remove potentially useful information simply because they don't like a person who shares it. By removing sets or ideas from the guide, you are no better than ryan himself, trying to withhold information from the community. If you disagree with the opinions shared in the guide, that's what the discussion tab is for. If you disagree strongly enough to not reach consensus with the other contributors, consider building your own guide where you can police it as you like. Hya (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I did reach consensus with Zan, and included his edits, then you and Chisel came in to troll with /PUP and /COR talk to be hyperbolic. There is an extremely wide margin concerning "potentially useful information" on /GEO and on /PUP and it's disingenuous to state otherwise.

--Afraidnot (talk) 16:15, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Why are we now removing information from the guide instead of presenting it all and allowing the reader to make decisions for themselves? /cor is as valid as /geo. If your stance is to present the information in full, stop removing other people’s contributions. You also removed edits to place information in more appropriate pages and transclude them back into the guide in the proper place. If you want to write your very own guide, go write your own guide. Dumo (talk) 20:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I literally wrote all of the sets in this guide after Spicyryan nuked it. I did that because I don't want or need credit, I just wanted a decent community resource and figured I'd step up instead of complaining. I assume you guys are all in a discord chat together giggling about vandalizing sincere effort, but I'd rather you guys just spend your energy towards contributing real sets instead of being triggered by /GEO.

--Afraidnot (talk) 16:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

We added (your words, not mine) extremely situational sets adjacent to another extremely situational set in a community guide open to contributions by literally Anyone in the community. Unilaterally (again your words) removing work contributed by other members of the community goes as an utter disservice and in complete ignorance of the spirit of this guide, this site, and this community. If you can show that /GEO can be extremely situational then so too can we show how /COR can be. Pushing Burn might just inch a base damage INT tier over the fence for those low tier nukes. Higher Master Levels also grant Wizard's Roll which can be just as effective to nuking as /GEO can be, along with Gallant's Roll providing just as useful defensive bonuses as /GEO could, I don't see why someone contributing to a BLM guide can't stop to take a look at the merit of a set before blowing it away. Especially given that they're extremely situational. Given that your extremely situational use was "solo", I really can't see where /COR sets don't also apply. But hey, Orangeman Bad I guess.

Chizel (talk) 20:33, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism is a highly disingenuous term to use for this situation. None of your sets have been altered or removed, despite how rarely useful or extremely niche some may be. Everything that you have contributed has been left as-is as far as I can tell. That's all that we are asking for as well. Your work to fill the vacuum left by an egocentric selfish ex-player is appreciated by everyone, I think, but by removing the ideas shared by others you are doing exactly what that person would do. Hya (talk) 20:38, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Hya. This is the guide for BLM the community deserves. One which takes GEO or COR sub seriously as something worthwhile to present and doesn't understand shit.

This is why I felt the need to move much of the actually valuable mechanics info from the guide to the INT and Magic Hit Rate pages before transcluding it back in. As the guide is no longer safe for actual information, in true communal fashion. My dig about info being removed above was because Afraid has deleted or altered info before this in the guide while no one was looking. -- Spicyryan (talk) 20:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I’d like to offer the following information for the court. On 21:40, 26 June 2024 Afraidnot made the following comment on the removal of Spicyryan’s testing. ”This is a Community Guide, it's not meant to advertise and credithog. People can see contributions thru the history log.” Removing the author’s name from this test will later bring to question the legitimacy of the test.

--Zan (talk) 23:28, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I saw some interest in seeking new possibilities that Master Levels can provide, however regarding Geomancy Magic Skill the Skill level+1 at Master Level Up only applies to magic skills the job has access to naturally so [[1]] claiming an effective 586 skill should actually be 201 skill (Indi-INT of 6, up to 7 with bonus equipment). I wouldn't want this option presented based on incorrect information. While interesting that it could synergize with the empyrean set by adding 3% conserve MP, it seems impractical when compared to SCH which allows faster spellcasting and at higher master levels Ebullience would be preferred to Collimated Fervor. --Shynoe (talk) 00:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Consider Rosette Jaseran +1 at R0 for Max MP in Myrkr it only gets better with RP, adding a DT -5% to the piece. Chizel (talk) 03:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)